| ABC: A Protestant Perspective | Birth Control in the Catholic Church |
| John
| November 21, 2002, 08:52 PM
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| ABC: A Protestant Perspective
Hello, this is John from the old messageboard. It took me a while to find this new site, but I'm dropping by once again to post an interesting document and make a few observations. When reading some of the posts on this forum, I've noticed that some "traditionalist" Catholics seem to approach evangelical Christians with a mixture of fear and disdain. In the eyes of many conservative Catholics, evangelical Christians -- who generally consider the use of ABC a matter of conscience -- are little more than "swingers" who defile the institution of marriage. Consequently, I thought I'd post the official statement on birth control by the Assemblies of God. Hopefully it will help Catholics form a deeper understanding of the evangelical Christian perspective on this issue. Here's the official statement in its entirety: ------------------------------------ Q: Does the Assemblies of God have a position on birth control? A: The command of God to mankind first mentioned in the Bible is found in Genesis 1:28: "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it." This was was a command of God to procreate. God created human sexuality as the means of filling the earth and having stewardship over the earth. In Bible days marriage and children were considered normal life experiences (Genesis 2:23,24). Barrenness was seen as a curse from God (Genesis 29:31; 1 Samuel 1:3-11; 2:5). A large family was viewed as a sign of God’s blessing (Psalm 127:3-5). Then as is still true in many societies around the world today, children provided the social security system for the parents. Some within the Church believe the commanded function of sexual relations to produce children to fill the earth and to increase the Church is so important that they forbid the use of any birth control methods. They believe any sexual act, even by married couples, that does not have the potential to produce a child is wrong. Within the Assemblies of God this view is rare. In the Assemblies of God we believe there are valid reasons for delaying, limiting, or not having children. There are those who realize they may need more time to mature before trying to raise children. There may be those who should never be a parent. Financial matters must also be considered. Some couples decide to wait until they have finished their schooling before having children. Living in a country in which the lives of the parents and children are in constant danger due to religious persecution might be reason to use birth control to await a safer time for starting or expanding a family. Still the normal expectation is that most Christians will marry and bring children into this world to be raised in the love and admonition of the Lord. In the past various groups, such as the Shakers, have tried to form religious communities based on total abstinence from marriage and sex. These groups rarely last beyond one generation for obvious reasons. CONCERNS: The use of chemically induced or surgical abortion as a means of birth control is flatly rejected. The Assemblies of God has an official position opposing abortion. Any birth control method that functions to destroy a fertilized egg, rather than actually preventing conception, is considered unacceptable. Every couple should take this into account when selecting methods of birth control. Having children requires that parents make a commitment to raising their children to be competent, committed members of their society. This requires sacrifice of time and money that could have been used by the parents for themselves. Unfortunately, there are too many parents in our materialistic, self-centered, society who are having children, but are unwilling to commit themselves to the sacrifices required to raise children well. This is also an issue for Christian couples. While we in the church recognize the legitimacy of good family planning and the use of birth control, we need to strike a balance. We must look beyond our ambitions and seek God in making these personal decisions. This is not to say every Christian couple must have children. It is simply to recognize that God’s plan for our lives may or may not include children. And regardless of circumstances, whether planned or unplanned, wanted or unwanted . . . children are a gift of God to be cherished. As Psalm 139:13-16 makes clear, the Lord is concerned about each person from the womb. Any decision to have or not have children should be made carefully and prayerfully. ------------------------------------------ As usual, here's the link: http://ag.org/top/beliefs/relationships/relations_17_birth_control.cfm |
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| John
| November 21, 2002, 08:56 PM
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| I should add that the substance of the Assemblies of
God position is generally accepted by most conservative Christians,
whether they identify themselves as "evangelical", "Pentecostalist", or
"fundamentalist". John |
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| Editor
Member | November 22, 2002, 09:02 AM
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| Thanks for sharing this, John. All in all, it seems a
very reasonable position by condemning abortions, affirming the
importance of seeking God's will, and trusting in the goodness of
conscientious Christian couples to do what is right for their marriage
and family. Notice that there's no reference in this somewhat fundamentalistic group to the story of Onan. Notice, too, that reflection on this issue without resorting to essentialistic considerations about the "objective structure of the sex act" has nontheless produced a position of spiritual and moral integrity. Hmmm . . . Dare we say that the Holy Spirit was working in this discernment?  |
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| Ahem
| November 22, 2002, 04:42 PM
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| But wait a minute. If the Spirit was working in that discernment, then you dare to imply that it was working outside the Church? Why, if the Spirit could work outside the Church, next thing you'll be claiming is that it works outside the Magisterium and clerical structure, too, in teaching souls! Oh, what a slippery slope you invite, Editor. | |
| Hugh
(hugh.oregan_NO_SPAM@pobox.com) Member | November 22, 2002, 04:59 PM
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quote: Of course the Spirit could work outside of the Church, the Magisterium and clerical structure. Catholic teaching does not limit the workings of the Spirit to the Magisterium and clerical Structure. I do not see any slippery slope. I see solid Catholic teaching that the Spirit works thoughout God's creation. Now it my opinion that the prohibition of Humanae Vitae has been rejected (non-reception) by the majority of Catholic laity and lower-clergy (at lest in the United States). It is my opinion that this non-reception by the people is also the working of the Spirit to demonstrate a teaching error of the Magisterium. Hugh |
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| Editor
Member | November 23, 2002, 09:41 AM
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Good reply, Hugh! Only I suspect "Ahem" was being sarcastic?  |
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| Hugh
(hugh.oregan_NO_SPAM@pobox.com) Member | November 23, 2002, 04:22 PM
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quote: It might well be that "Ahem" was being sarcastic. However, I could not be sure and sarcastic or not; Ahem's post represents a position not unknown to segments of Catholic conservative thought. Hugh |
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| Editor
Member | November 24, 2002, 10:03 AM
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| Right, Hugh. As we both know, however, the idea that the Spirit is at work only in the Catholic tradition isn't even official Catholic teaching. I'm glad that point has been expressed on this thread. | |
| Paul VI
Member | November 26, 2002, 02:21 PM
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John, glad to hear your opinion, but we seem to already have PLENTY of protestant opinions on this board!!!! 
(In fact you will have to look long and hard to find a reference to
authentic Cathoic teaching, as described in the CCC.) The Catholic
position is contraception is a sin. Period. Those that disent and
especially those who attempt to "teach" and try to sway others against
this teaching, are protestants, at best. On a more personal note, if
you would like to know more about or discuss the Cathoic Church's
teachings you can e-mail me at dontworshipabook@yahoo.comP |
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| Henry VIII
| November 26, 2002, 06:31 PM
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quote: John made it clear that this is the official statement of the Assembly of God churches, not his personal opinion. His personal opinion shouldn't be your concern, anyways. It's none of your business. None of the ABC users on this board worry about whether or not the sexual relationship between you and your wife (with or without NFP) exemplifies the Church's ideal model of marital chastity. Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. Also, none of the ABC users on this board worry about whether you practice NFP due to genuinely "serious" motives or whether you and your wife are using NFP simply to "get off" a few times a month with a decreased probability of concieving a child. BTW, I think your email address ("don't worship a book") is juvenile and insulting. It's the Catholic equivalent of a Jack Chick comic book. You should leave this argument to the more thoughtful and mature NFP supporters who come to this board, because you're repelling more people than you're attracting. |
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| Paul VI
Member | November 26, 2002, 07:32 PM
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| The "King" posted: John made it clear that this is the official statement of the Assembly of God churches, not his personal opinion. His personal opinion shouldn't be your concern, anyways. It's none of your business. ========================================== Opinions are sometimes interesting, but I tend to agree! =========================================== None of the ABC users on this board worry about whether or not the sexual relationship between you and your wife (with or without NFP) exemplifies the Church's ideal model of marital chastity. Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. Also, none of the ABC users on this board worry about whether you practice NFP due to genuinely "serious" motives or whether you and your wife are using NFP simply to "get off" a few times a month with a decreased probability of concieving a child. ============================================ Dont recall what this has to do with this thread, maybe you will enlighten us!!! ============================================== BTW, I think your email address ("don't worship a book") is juvenile and insulting. It's the Catholic equivalent of a Jack Chick comic book. You should leave this argument to the more thoughtful and mature NFP supporters who come to this board, because you're repelling more people than you're attracting. =========================================== Please see response to opinions above!! ========================================== Next. P |
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| James
Member | November 26, 2002, 09:34 PM
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| Dear P, Don't worship a book? Like the Catechism of the Catholic Church, is that the kind of book your thinking of? You are in error. The Church does not teach that people who use ABC are Protestants. Please cite the page and number of that component of the CCC. Next you'll start telling us that those who miss Mass on Sunday due to chronic or dibilitating illnesses are also Protestants. But what does being Protestant have to do with the teaching on contraception? To follow your logic many Priests who administer the Sacraments daily would also be Protestants since many of them disagree with HV. It doesn't really make sense to say that when you think of it in that light, does it? Please tell me you have more substance in your bag of tricks than this ridiculous line of logic.  |
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| Editor
Member | November 26, 2002, 11:31 PM
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| Well said as usual, James. What I'd like for Paul VI and others of like mind to explain to us (since we're on the topic of Protestantism) is why not one single Protestant Church forbids non-abortive forms of ABC. The Orthodox Church (which Paul VI probably considers Protestant, too) doesn't prohibit it either. Only the Catholic Church does, and considers it a grave evil, hinting that eternal damnation lies in wait for those who voluntarily use ABC. Just consider for a moment this unusual situation. How is it that every Protestant Church and the Orthodox Church can all be so wrong? If ABC is so unambiguously evil, as the Catholic Magisterium keeps insisting, then why don't Protestants see it, too? They're right there with us on virtually every other moral issue, and were actually ahead of us in some like abolition, denouncing the death penalty and a few others. Why doesn't at least ONE Protestant Church forbid ABC? Are they all so deluded as to miss what is so obvious to the Catholic Magisterium? Can Paul VI and others explain to us what Catholic leaders possess spiritually and morally which enables them to hold such a decidedly different position from the rest of Christendom? Is this an example of a greater outpouring of the Spirit of Wisdom on Catholic leaders? Is that what you're suggesting, P VI? |
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| Paul VI
Member | November 27, 2002, 10:05 AM
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| James said: Don't worship a book? Like the Catechism of the Catholic Church, is that the kind of book your thinking of? ====================== What? (This board does seem to bring on the crazies!) ======================================= You are in error. The Church does not teach that people who use ABC are Protestants. ======================================= I agree, they are in a state of mortal sin, but not protestants, while those who teach and spread false teachings like "ABC is great!" ARE protestants at best. ========================================= Please cite the page and number of that component of the CCC. Next you'll start telling us that those who miss Mass on Sunday due to chronic or dibilitating illnesses are also Protestants. ============================================ Please review your your CCC. ========================================== But what does being Protestant have to do with the teaching on contraception? =================================== See above. ================================== To follow your logic many Priests who administer the Sacraments daily would also be Protestants since many of them disagree with HV. ======================================= I don't know of any Cathoic priest that teaches from the pulpit that HV is wrong. Do you? I trust they themselves are not in a relationship using ABC!!!! ============================================ Blah, Blah, Blah..... |
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| Paul VI
Member | November 27, 2002, 10:25 AM
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| Big ED posted: What I'd like for Paul VI and others of like mind to explain to us (since we're on the topic of Protestantism) is why not one single Protestant Church forbids non-abortive forms of ABC. The Orthodox Church (which Paul VI probably considers Protestant, too) doesn't prohibit it either. Only the Catholic Church does, and considers it a grave evil, hinting that eternal damnation lies in wait for those who voluntarily use ABC. Just consider for a moment this unusual situation. How is it that every Protestant Church and the Orthodox Church can all be so wrong? If ABC is so unambiguously evil, as the Catholic Magisterium keeps insisting, then why don't Protestants see it, too? They're right there with us on virtually every other moral issue, and were actually ahead of us in some like abolition, denouncing the death penalty and a few others. Why doesn't at least ONE Protestant Church forbid ABC? Are they all so deluded as to miss what is so obvious to the Catholic Magisterium? Can Paul VI and others explain to us what Catholic leaders possess spiritually and morally which enables them to hold such a decidedly different position from the rest of Christendom? Is this an example of a greater outpouring of the Spirit of Wisdom on Catholic leaders? Is that what you're suggesting, P VI? ============================================== Great question! Thanks for the opportunity to respond! As said in John 16:13 ("But when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will teach you all truth. For he shall not speak of himself: but what things soever he shall hear, he shall speak. And the things that are to come, he shall shew you." The Holy Spirit guides Christ's Church (I hope this is not new material for you "
through the Magisterium in matters of faith and morals. Since the
Catholic Churhs is THE Church founded by Christ, our seperated brothers
do not have this assurance. Also, you might want to do a litte work in
the area of the role of the Pope in the Church. But this question
actually brings up another topic, if the protestant churches have the
"truth" why do you "put up" with the Holy Roman Catholic Church? Why
not take the ultimate protestant position and Love God and do what
feels good? Just as a side note, some protestant churches do FAVOR abortion on demand and even partial birth abortion. (See the Episcopal Church in america, the unitited churches of christ, etc.) and they of course then ABC is just dandy. |
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| Editor
Member | November 27, 2002, 10:50 AM
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| P VI, you've placed your usual "spin" on things in
saying that some Protestant churches "favor" abortion. I'd like to see
a reference to an official document from any Protestant church that
"favors" abortion. You also turn the question I asked into a personal issue--i.e., why I remain Catholic when I disagree with the teaching on birth control. One could just as easily turn it back to you and say "why not?" Surely you don't consider this issue so important as to define what constitutes Catholicism. But you did answer the other questions I asked you by affirming that you believe that the Spirit of Truth leads the Catholic Church but not other Christian denominations. Something like ABC, which the Catholic Magisterium sees so clearly and unambiguously as a grave evil, is not obvious to them because they don't have the Spirit of Truth like the Magisterium does. Am I understanding you correctly? Now here's a point for you and others to consider, namely that all those Protestant communities are actually part of the larger mystical body of Christ. They all participate in the salvation won by Christ; Protestants can be saved. I don't think it too far a stretch to say that their understanding on matters of faith and morals is part of the "sense of the faithful" which Vatican II referred to. That being the case, then what does this tell us about the sense of the faithful in Christendom concerning ABC? And another angle: since the Magisterium has acknowledged that Protestants can be saved, knowing full well that they allow for the practice of ABC, then how can the Magisterium continue to affirm that ABC is an intrinsically evil act, grave evil, mortal sin, etc.? An intrinsically evil act, you may recall, is "denominationally blind" and it supposedly doesn't matter if you believe it's evil or not. The "intrinsic" label is an attempt to say that circumstance and intent don't really matter--at least that's how some bishops put it. So how can Protestants be saved when they allow for the practice of ABC? Or would you say instead that Protestants who practice ABC cannot be saved since they are indulging an intrinsically evil act? |
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| Paul VI
Member | November 27, 2002, 02:53 PM
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Just a little follow-up on my "spin"  about protestant groups supporting a woman's right to kill her unborn child:Link = http://www.ucc.org/justice/choice/ Quoted from the above UCC website: The United Church of Christ has affirmed and re-affirmed since 1971 that access to safe and legal abortion is consistent with a woman’s right to follow the dictates of her own faith and beliefs in determining when and if she should have children, and has supported comprehensive sexuality education as one measure to prevent unwanted or unplanned pregnancies. (General Synods VIII, IX, XI, XII, XIII, XVI, XVII, and XVIII) Link = http://www.naral.org/actnow/10_facts_ab.html Quoted from the above NARAL website: Many religions support a woman's right to choose. Religions in support of a woman's right to choose include American Baptist Churches USA, Episcopal Church, Presbyterian Church (USA), United Methodist Church, and United Synagogue for Conservative Judaism. Less than one fourth of U.S. Catholics agree that abortion should be illegal in all circumstances. 10 Also please note the website www.catholics4choice.com (Since they are acting on their clear conscience I assume you would agree they are not comitting/encouraging sin????) As for the Sensus Fidelium, the sense of the faithful, the key word is faithful. This means, fidelity to God in prayer, sacraments, study, humility and docility before God and legitimate Church authority. By the faithful, when referring to the Sensus Fidelium, the Church does not simply mean Catholics living now, but also includes what Chesterton called the “democracy of the dead” — what the holy men and women before us have always believed throughout the history of the Church. When there is wide-spread rejection and disobedience of legitimate Church authority, especially in faith and morals, those rejecting it cannot claim the Sensus Fidelium argument. So how can protestants be part of the "faithful?" I propose that "Catholic" disenters are not even part of the "Sensus Fidelium!!" One last note, please be aware MANY protestant couples recognize that ABC is evil and practice NFP. Also note VCII says protestants "CAN" be saved not that they will be (and if they are it will be through the Holy Roman Catholic Church.) |
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| Editor
Member | November 27, 2002, 03:51 PM
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Just a little follow-up on my "spin" about protestant groups supporting a woman's right to kill her unborn child.P6, you said they "favored" abortion, which is not so. Liberal Protestant denominations like the United Church of Christ do not forbid abortion, but neither do they encourage it. Big difference! Then you come along with : http://www.catholics4choice.com (Since they are acting on their clear conscience I assume you would agree they are not comitting/encouraging sin????) All I will say on this is that anyone who puts abortion and birth control on the same moral level can't be reasoned with. The Catholic position on abortion has been seriously weakened by tying it to contraception. . . . I propose that "Catholic" disenters are not even part of the "Sensus Fidelium!!" Well, how convenient for the Magisterium! Using your (erroenous) understanding of the meaning of this term, they don't even need to consider the sensus fidelium, for it turns out be synonymous with those who agree with Magisterial teaching. All the Magisterium needs to do, then, is issue whatever teachings it wishes, and those who agree are "the faithful" while those who don't are not. What a wonderful, marvelous world! One last note, please be aware MANY protestant couples recognize that ABC is evil and practice NFP. Also note VCII says protestants "CAN" be saved not that they will be (and if they are it will be through the Holy Roman Catholic Church.) That's just nonsense. All are saved through Christ, whose reach embraces not only Protestantism, but all the world religions. But I am hearing you say (I think) that Protestants who use ABC are also committing mortal sin and will probably be damned for it. Is that correct? |
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| Paul VI
Member | November 27, 2002, 05:28 PM
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| I think we had a mis-communication on the reason I
brought up the "catholics" for a free choice. (The pro-abortion
quasi-catholic group.) My point there was to show the foolishness of
believing that one can just follow one's mal-formed conscience in
determining what is truth. Those poor souls think they are doing
"good" by promoting abortion, again with a clear (yet mal-formed)
conscience. A properly formed conscience is one that IS FORMED to the
teachings of the Catholic Church. On protestantism, are you presuming all will be saved? Please refer to Dominus Iesus, as I stated, if others are saved it will be through the Catholic Church. If protestants know of the evil of ABC and still practice it, that would be a very dificult situtation......Christ have Mercy.... Must be away for a few days, Happy Thanksgiving to all!!! P |
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| James
Member | November 27, 2002, 06:07 PM
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| ======================================= You are in error. The Church does not teach that people who use ABC are Protestants. ======================================= I agree, they are in a state of mortal sin, but not protestants, while those who teach and spread false teachings like "ABC is great!" ARE protestants at best. ========================================= P, You must consider yourself to be of superior quality if you can judge which souls are in or out of a state of mortal sin. Please review your CCC, only Our Lord and Savior is in the position to do such even in the case of dissenters. I hope you are not as arrogant about your own salvation, or you may find yourself extremely surprised in the Eternal. And you are correct those who spread false teachings like "NFP leads to salvation." are not in line with correct teaching of the Church, but have never been called Protestants by the Pope or members of the Magesterium (please find me evidence to the contrary). It is unfortunate that you were never given the benefit of how to develop and work on a properly formed conscience. Something ironically that you are much worried about in others, but not particularly concerned about in yourself. |
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