Natural Family Planning:"Catholic Contraception"? | Birth Control in the Catholic Church |
momof3
| December 04, 2002, 07:34 PM
|
Natural Family Planning:"Catholic Contraception"?
Hello there, I just read a rather interesting article written by an ultra-conservative Catholic. Ironically, they agree with one of the positions of this website. YES, NFP is contraception. Take a look at the quote below. The article is too long to post but this part really hits the nail on the head. Take a look..... "Dvorak cites a 10 Dec 1968 Look magazine article by Andre Hallegers of Georgetown University’s Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology. In that article, Professor Hallegers noted that "The encyclical’s biology is not thought through. It says that intercourse must be always let open to the transmission of life, then it asks us to perfect a method – Rhythm – that is closed to the transmission of life. It implies that when a woman is sterile, the marriage act is open to the transmission of life. This is not true. When there is no ovum to fertilize, the act is closed to reproduction. How to explain why intercourse that cannot possibly lead to a baby is intercourse open to the transmission of life? A scientist would say it is closed. We ask: Why is a sterile act fertile? Why is a closed act open?" Of course it is important to note that the writer of this article believes there should be no family planning methods allowed. momof3 |
Momz
Member | December 04, 2002, 10:01 PM
|
Thanks Mo3. I believe you were citing the article, Natural Family Planning: "Catholic Contraception"? by Carey J. Winters? This information was contained in the August 1998 issue of the newsletter, RealCatholicism, Vol. 1, No. 9 . I must say, at the outset, that Mr. Winters and the newsletter, RealCatholicism, generally represent views on a number of issues that are ... ... I'm searching for a kind characterization ... ... totally unorthodox by any standards used by Catholics, whether conservative or progressive. Nonetheless, in keeping with that notion that credentials are sometimes difficult to establish and that, therefore, our forum will engage ideas on their own merits (especially for such nuanced considerations that lack authoritative citations and good peer-reviewed academic scholarship) --- let me introduce more of Mr. Winters' ideas. Judge those ideas for logical consistency and internal coherency and see what your own take is on his positions (without applying any ad hominem fallacies, yourselves). People can follow the above-link to the entire article. Below, in keeping with fair use and reasonable posting bandwidth constraints, I will list Mr. Winters' major counterclaims, followed by two or three salient sentences from the paragraphs that follow them in that article. They will make for many great departure points in our ongoing discussion, dialogue and debate, I think. Answering the claims of NFP Claim #1: "NFP is natural." quote: Claim #2: "NFP is open to life." quote: Claim #3: "NFP strengthens the marriage." quote: Claim #4: "NFP requires self-denial." quote: Claim #5 "NFP facilitates responsible parenthood." quote: Claim #6 "The Pope said that we should use NFP." quote: Finally, he writes: quote: Gosh, I can't wait to hear what James has to say about all of this. I'll desist, defer and demur. Thanks, again, Mo3. Looking forward to a nice substantive thread Happy Holidays in Him, momZ |
kevin
| December 05, 2002, 03:05 PM
|
- posted by Editor - moving thread
Mom I would like to respond to that ultra catholic website you quoted on. It is fair to say that it is not a valid catholic website cause they reject Vatican II as valid.This is Heresy Claim 1 "NFP is Natural" They state "there is nothing natural about intentionally divorcing an action from its intended purpose" Sure if you view sex in humans as only procreative.Heck in there time it was viewed as a necessarry evil in some circles. The Human Sciences,Marital experiences & the second account of creation in Genesis"It is not GOOD for man to be alone" have shown that what makes human sexuality particuilarily human as opposed to other primates is its pair-bonding qualities.We Bond with people we have sexual relations with, & that is one aspect of human love.NFP preserves the unitive/procreative cause the intinsic nature of the act is preserved. I agree with this. You don^t hey that^s fine claim #2 NFP is open to life. I made love to my wife last week,we use NFP. We had no condoms,artificial barriers all was natural. No impediment to the developing cosequences of the act we indulged in. As far as we are concerned we were open to life.The giving of self in Totality & the integrity of the act was intact.The end result is there is no impediment to the consequences of the act itself. That sounds like oppeness to life to me. Just like sex after the child rearing years,or sex when one person is naturally sterile. The Intrinsic nature of the act is preserved NFP strengthens marriage. It can during times of abstinence because other means can be used to express your love & draw closer.Also abstinence makes the act all the more desirable when periodic continence is over. NFP facillates responsible parenthood. This is not necessarily the case so II^l give credit to the Flat Earth Society on this one for saying that this statement is invalid Pope said that we should use NFP s0 its ok.They mention Casti Connubili for condemning nfp, but Casti Connubili DID APPROVE the RHYTM METHOD.Recall Verse 59 " Nor are those acting against Nature who use their right in the proper manner on account of time or of certain defects new life cannot be brought forth,for in matrimony as well as in the USE OF MATRIMONIAL RIGHTS there are secondary ends such as mutual aid, mutual love..........so long as the intrinsic nature of the act is preserved" In a old catechism by Father Hardon SJ he quoted this 1930 encyclicle to defend the use of Rythm. There is no contradiction of the 2 encyclicles. Only that Humanae Vitae acknowledged the importance of the Unitive with the procreative on the same level.Before Vatican II it was more secondary. The Flat Earth society should read up on John Henry Neuman^s The Developement of Doctrine, that applies to authoritative but non definitive teachings. You would be surprised how many had to be revised or changed as new discovery & input come to play. As long as it is non definitive. This website is not consistent as you say, there very SELECTIVE in what they choose so beware. Regards |
Momz
Member | December 05, 2002, 10:25 AM
|
thanks, Kevin
I'm glad you saw fit to engage those issues head-on, though I would've understood if you would have preferred not to. And, yeah, everything else you had to say about those people's overall thrust is right-on --- heretical? yes, that seems appropriate. So, anyway, let's see what others have to say, now, about your specific engagement of the NFP as contraception issues, and about that article's presentation of same. I'm going to step back and give others a shot inasmuch as I can't think of anything new to say, presently. Someone can do a search for "momZ" to get my rejoinders and counterclaims. Kevin, rather than click on the "new topics" link, click on the "respond to this post" link (or whatever it is called). That way we can keep the continuity of the posts running without proliferating a bunch of new threads. I see where you are new here so I thought I'd point this out. Likely, the Editor is going to do something or other to re-thread all of this stuff, I suppose. Have a great day and thanks again for joining us! Keep the faith! momZ |
Paul VI
Member | December 05, 2002, 11:29 AM
|
Thanks Kevin for such thoughtful posts. This argument
about "conservative" catholics and "liberal" catholics doesn't hold
much water. Either these folks are in-line with the magisterium of the
Church or they are not. Similarly, it is very comfy here in-line with
the Holy Father! P |
Momz
Member | December 05, 2002, 12:43 PM
|
do take comfort
And rightly, so, you should take comfort. Just don't get too comfortable or you may end up like those Carmelites who imprisoned John of the Cross, now a Doctor of the Church, in Toledo. A voice of prophetic protest should only come from a very deeply rooted spirituality, otherwise one is indeed better off uncritically swallowing whole everything from the Teaching Office ... at least one can only assume that such is being done uncritically when all another offers is the same tired tautological and fallacious appeals to authority, over and over again, with no compelling logic in their apologetic. This is not to say that anyone here, in particular, is doing that. The forum archives stand on their own to reveal that. It is only to offer a caveat emptor regarding any posts (like Paul VI's last post) or regarding contributors that would generally foot the bill. Critically but hopefully charitably, momZ |
kevin
| December 05, 2002, 03:08 PM
|
- moved from other thread by Editor -
Why Mom do you get involved in so called catholic sites that are completely out of wack? There^s one so called catholic site that believes the earth is still the centre of the unniverse because the pope centuries ago claimed it as such & they claim some type of proof that it is the case. These people involve themselves in biological principles that are no longer valid. The church once forbade sex outside of the missionary position or on sundays or if the woman was sterile.Nonsense comes & goes. By bringing up these wacko sites shows a failure in my opinion to defend ABC because your becoming allies with places that are not truly catholic unless you are living in the 1200s.I^m not condemning ABC if a couple in informed that it preserves the integrity of the act conscience uses it to space births.NFP is accepted by the church because of the belief it preserves the integrity of the act which of course is debated in this forum.But I find it to be a disservice to all when you bring up these wacko sites. They probably condemn Democracy which was once authoritatively condemned by Pius ix. Using such sites puts you far back of this debate |
Momz
Member | December 05, 2002, 07:40 AM
|
you disobeyed MomZ, Kevin!
Hi Kevin. I very much appreciate and understand your objection. I am aware of these wackos' positions on evolution, on the new order of the mass, on helio/geocentrism, etc That is why I prefaced my remarks by stating that Mr. Carey's general views are most unorthodox by almost any Catholic standards. More to the point, that is why I wrote: quote: So, Kevin, you have precisely engaged the logical fallacy known as the abusive ad hominem. It's not like this is a grievous error in thinking because most of us come to many conclusions rather fallibilistically and it is quite natural, for instance, due to time constraints, if for no other reasons, to be totally dismissive of a given person's ideas in one particular matter if they have already been throughly credentialed on other matters and found totally wanting (and even abysmally so). Now, Kevin, the challenge for you, should you want to take the time (and I appreciate that you may not want to do so, for good reasons), and the challenge for everyone else, is to take on the specific points that Carey put forth regarding NFP, like I originally suggested: Judge those ideas for logical consistency and internal coherency and see what your own take is on his positions. Bless You All. momZ |
Momz
Member | December 05, 2002, 07:48 AM
|
another ad hominem
Kevin wrote: Using such sites puts you far back of this debate Now, now, Kevin ... I hope that Paul VI and other members of this forum's NFP cadre would disagree with any assessment that Momma is far back in this debate Alas, my hopes have been dashed before by unruly children and I'm sure they will be dashed again Tenderly caring, momZ |
kevin
| December 05, 2002, 03:12 PM
|
- post moved by Editor -
Please forgive my spelling for a small part of my previous post. I meant to say that those who use ABC in informed conscience to space births are to be respected if they find the church^s official non-definitive teaching unconvincing. But as the editor pointed out the magisterium is trying to say something about the integrity of the act thru NFP though of course there is disagreement on this. Regards |
Editor
Member | December 05, 2002, 03:23 PM
|
That's better
Now, I've got all the discussion and comments on this thread, though things aren't necessarily in the right order. Some of the posts by kevin come after the replies which were made to them in different threads, which have been merged to this one. Unfortunately, the software doesn't have a good thread-merging option--only reply-merging. ---------- This topic goes to show that there are extremists on the right as well as the left when it comes to relating to the Church. While I agree with many of the points made about the fallacious claims of NFP, the point made about its being at odds with *real Catholicism* is obviously in error. No one who has any official connection to this web site and discussion board would distort things so as to say that the *real Catholicism* or a *true Pope* really does allow ABC, for example. Obviously, it doesn't. Dialoguing about the merits of the teaching and the duties of Catholics toward it as we do here is very different from what those right wingers are doing. |
momof3
| December 05, 2002, 03:47 PM
|
you are right Kevin
Hello Kevin, At the moment I'm frustrated because I just 15 minutes typing you a reply which got deleted as the editor was cleaning up the same time I was trying to post. You are absolutely right!! The guy who hosts that website is completely wacko. I came across it accidentally and read it for comic relief. I found the quote I posted very interesting and true. I suppose if I paraphrased and quoted it myself you may have taken it more seriously coming from a real Catholic and all. Really I am just a simple mom who finds this discussion interesting. I have a big bad case of PPD (post-partum depression) and don't have the thought capacity to respond as intelligently and thoroghly as some of you folk. I'm trying and if the little people (my kids) give me a few minutes I'd like to just express a thought As you said..... "NFP strengthens marriage. It can during times of abstinence because other means can be used to express your love & draw closer.Also abstinence makes the act all the more desirable when periodic continence is over." I agree with your statement. I also agree that ABC does the same thing. My husband have many other things which draw us closer than sex. I'd bet you a million bucks that we have more periodic continence happening using ABC than you do using NFP. I've used NFP and ABC and really can't make a claim that my intention using NFP being more "open to life" as the cliche goes. I'm a college educated prayerful woman and I just don't get it. Although, I certainly respect that NFP works great for you and gee whiz if I could confidently use NFP to avoid a pregnancy those condoms would be right out the window. Who wouldn't want to have sex o'natural? I'll take a minute and share my expoeriences on another thread. momof3 And I'm hoping that I addressed what was asked to me from everyone.... |
Editor
Member | December 05, 2002, 09:18 PM
|
Sorry about wiping out your post, momof3! Just tidying
up the place a bit. You couldn't get back to your typed reply using
the back button? That might have worked. Anyway, good to see you here again, as it was on the old forum. |
momof3
Member | December 06, 2002, 02:44 PM
|
for the editor
I understand. I did push the back button but my reply must be out there floating in cyberspace somewhere. Thanks, momof3 momof3 |
Paul VI
Member | December 08, 2002, 07:56 PM
|
An article from a Catholic website regarding Humanae Vitea: ://www.catholicexchange.com/church_today/message.asp?message_id=&sec_id=1 |
Editor
Member | December 09, 2002, 01:46 PM
|
That link brought me to: The Bishops Speak Title: Why Pray Through Mary? Mothers’ Pleas are Powerful Author: Most Rev. John C. Favalora, Archbishop of Miami Date: Monday, December 9, 2002 ---------- ? ? ? Is it archived somewhere? Or, maybe, care to tell us what you thought we could learn from it? |
Editor
Member | December 09, 2002, 02:21 PM
|
OK, I found it after digging around awhile, and will
reply to the points which offer the most direct criticisms of ABC and
endorsements of NFP. Nothing new there, really. ----------- That is precisely why "Humanae Vitae" teaches that artificial methods of birth control are immoral while natural methods are permissible. Natural methods work within God’s creative plan: when couples want to avoid pregnancy, they abstain from sexual contact. Artificial methods, on the other hand, are barriers to the total self-giving that is intrinsic to married love and to God’s plan for creation. The "barrier to total self-giving" line has been shown to be an empty one on the web site and on this forum many times. What can it possibly mean with respect to birth control? That the only real self-giving happens when there is a possibility of conception? Can't be, for infertile sex using NFP is allowed. That the unwillingness to conceive is the barrier? Again, this is in NFP. Also, the reference to NFP as "God's plan" for couples spacing children has been shown to be hollow. This is hardly the reason why the woman's monthly cycle exists. Although "Humanae Vitae" continues to be fiercely criticized by people who disagree with its conclusions -- especially Catholics -- there is no question that the past three decades have proven Paul VI correct -- even prophetic. "No question"? What's to discuss, right? He predicted that the pill and other artificial methods of birth control would have negative repercussions for humanity. Indeed, artificial contraceptives have severed the connection between sex, love and marriage. We now have sex without love, sex outside of marriage, and pleasure without responsibility. All too poorly nuanced, as though ABC alone is the cause of all kinds of social ills. Keep in mind that there's just nothing about NFP per se which negates the possibility of "sex without love, sex outside of marriage, and pleasure without responsibility." You can have a extrmarital affair and use NFP to regulate the times for sexual involvement, so what's the point, here? The consequences of that thinking are evident in our sky-high rates of divorce, teenage pregnancy and sexually-transmitted diseases; and in the number of single parents, absent fathers, and abandoned children who languish in foster care in this, the most economically and technologically advanced nation on earth. All sorts of logical fallacies here, which are presented as facts and as proofs for the arguments that ABC is bad. ABC leading to abandoned children is one that I've never seen before; I'd like to see that one proved. The pill has taught women to think of pregnancy as a disease that can be cured with a prescription or, when that fails, an abortion. It has taught men to believe that birth control is the woman’s problem -- as are the children who are born when the method fails. All b.s. Men have always been slackers when it came to taking responsibility for pregnancy and child-rearing. Nothing new, there (right gals? ). As for ABC viewing pregnancy as a disease, this is the kind of judgmental nonsense that shows how desperate anti-ABC people are to finally make a point. If checking the temperature of the vagina and examining cervical mucous before sex isn't treating pregnancy like a disease, then I don't know what is. Of course, that depends on the attitude one takes to the practice, doesn't it? Anti-ABCer always gratuitously impute "respect for fertility" to those NFP practitioners while judging ABC practitioners as acting out of an anti-life, contraceptive mentality. See the spin? The advent of the pill led us to conclude that science can control nature, and so we have moved on to artifical insemination, sperm donors, test-tube babies, cloning, and surrogate mothers. Who knows where else this kind of thinking will lead us? Slippery slope fallacy. No points scored. It is time for Catholics and other people of good will to heed the wisdom of "Humanae Vitae." Sex is a wonderful gift from God, meant to be enjoyed responsibly by men and women within the lifelong union of marriage. Through the sexual act, God has entrusted us with the awesome power of being co-creators with him. Very good! Amen! I agree. But this supports nothing he's said so far about the dangers of ABC. When human beings trifle with God’s plan and abuse that power, they imperil both their immortal souls and the well-being of their world. The evidence of our folly is all around us. Back now, to the supposedly unambiguous evidence that the woman's monthly cycle presents us with an objective basis for regulating births, only discovered in the 20th Century according to God's designs for the human race. And, of course, it wouldn't be a REAL Catholic essay on birth control without throwing in a fear-tactic about hell and damnation. Where DO they find these guys? ---------- Back to you, Paul VI. |
Paul VI
Member | December 09, 2002, 03:39 PM
|
Editor, my most humble apologies about the difficulties
finding the essay by the Monsignor (and PHD I might add.) On that
terrific Orthodox Catholic, web-site www.catholicexchange.com, the essay of the day is only current under that URL for that day, then archived. Glad you we able to find it! P |
kevin
Member | December 09, 2002, 05:09 PM
|
I was reading that some ancient cultures were aware of natural fertility.They learned from their mothers about what to look out for as far as recognizing signs of fertility went.Not everyone used lotions or potions. As far as irregular cycles I have read that usually regular or frequent intercourse makes the cycle more consistent.There have been numerous experiences to show this but does it apply to each & every case,I don^t know. I have great sympathy for mom^s story especially the part of post natal depression. It is fair to note that the original draft of Humanae Vitae contained the words serious sin but Pope Paul VI modified it & crossed out the words serious sin before it was released.He also didn^t teach it as infallible. You can^t say he was insensitive to the issue.He was put under alot of stress but I believe he did the right thing.Is it fair to say the church^s teaching on birth control is more of an ideal than anything else though John Paul II would try to argue it as a moral absolute. A lot of church teaching is based on roman law.Roman law usually dealt with ideals not absolutes.You stop at a red light in a open field as a example,you are suppose to wait for the light to turn green but both sides of the road are clear,it^s taking a while to change so you look both ways, double check & cross thru the intersection on the red.If a police officer in Rome were to see this, at least that^s what they say, they^ll let you go undetected because though what you did was not exactly right it was not exactly wrong either.I know that there are specific christian moral norms but though I believe in Humanae vitae I can see some room for the exercise of conscience for some good reasons in the matter.People have to be put first sometimes in certain circumstances. |
Editor
Member | December 10, 2002, 12:44 PM
|
As far as irregular cycles I have read that usually
regular or frequent intercourse makes the cycle more consistent.There
have been numerous experiences to show this but does it apply to each
& every case,I don^t know. I've never heard of this one, and don't understand its logic. A couple is supposed to have "frequent intercourse" (non-ABC suggested, here, I think) to help woman's cycle become consistent. And not keep getting pregnant? That would be stabilizing things, in a way: pregnant for nine months every year. It is fair to note that the original draft of Humanae Vitae contained the words serious sin but Pope Paul VI modified it & crossed out the words serious sin before it was released.He also didn^t teach it as infallible. You can^t say he was insensitive to the issue. He was just being truthful, here, not sensitive. The teaching couldn't really be considered infallible--not without bringing total discredit to his papacy. And as for it being considered a grave sin, that's always seemed to me to be a most gratuitous judgment. He was put under alot of stress but I believe he did the right thing.Is it fair to say the church^s teaching on birth control is more of an ideal than anything else though John Paul II would try to argue it as a moral absolute. It would be a great improvement if it were presented as an ideal, but there's not much to recommend NFP over ABC as an ideal. I don't think JP II and the bishops he's appointed leave any doubt about their view of it as a moral absolute, binding on all Catholic married couples in all circumstances. I know that there are specific christian moral norms but though I believe in Humanae vitae I can see some room for the exercise of conscience for some good reasons in the matter.People have to be put first sometimes in certain circumstances. That's quite sensible, and even orthodox, I would say. [This message was edited by Editor on December 10, 2002 at 01:14 PM.] |