How can love coexist Birth Control in the Catholic Church

Momz
Member
November 29, 2002, 12:03 PM
How can love coexist
quote:
On the one hand, you seem to be saying that you love the Church. On the other hand, you seem to be saying that you are afraid of the Magisterial arm of it. How can love coexist in a situational context of fear?



As it did in Bethlehem or the Garden of Gethsemane.

There are many emotions which color all of our relationships, whether between parents and children, between spouses, between teachers and pupils, between bosses and employees, believers and God. These emotions make for a strange admixture, no doubt. In love, we aren't dealing only with emotions, or even only memory and understanding, but rather with a matter of the will (which trumps emotions every time).

The visible structure of our Pilgrim Church, like any individual in relationship to another, asks of us: Be patient, God isn't finished with me yet. We are all, indivdually, on journeys of transformation. Is it not to be expected then that, collectively, we also journey as a People of God? Thus, we love the Church with all of Her imperfections, just like we love our spouses, children, teachers, neighbors and friends. We look forward to the purging of every element of fear, of alienation, of estrangement and where every breach is repaired.

Certainly, our relationships will remain tainted by fear, by anger, by guilt, by pain, by loneliness, by dejection and rejection, and so on and so forth. True enough, love on planet Earth does indeed coexist in many contexts with wide-ranging human imperfections. So, too, in the Church.

There is a certain measure of pie in the sky idealism that we don't want to let go of that, if nurtured properly, can keep us focused on our beatific vision and keep us grounded in true beatitude. An imbalanced measure, however, can degenerate into an ever-elusive romanticism that remains jaded and disaffected, so scandalized by the human condition that it, like Judas and the Zealots, misses the message of the Incarnation. We are a holy and beloved people. Love coexists with every form of evil. Forgiveness is that aspect of love that conquers the evils of estrangement, alienation and disaffection. These are elements that make a loyal opposition possible.

The problem, under consideration presently in other threads, is well set forth in Catholic Theologians & Academic Freedom by By James E. Biechler. Some very edifying responses to the problem are set forth in To Norway with Love: Toward the Kindom of God and in Why I’m Still A Catholic by Andrew Greeley, who uses the more genteel term, corrupt thugs, rather than something as scathing as fascists. wink

This is not to say that some people who may have been so wounded by a relationship (parental, spousal, ecclesial) should not get out and get and remain far away in order to heal. This is just to shed some light on why some people remain in the Church and thrive there despite its imPerFEcshUNZ. The gifts of Eucharist, Reconciliation, the spiritualities of the Jesuits, Carmelites, Benedictines, Dominicans, Franciscans et al, the Thomistic metaphysics, the soaring liturgies and hauntingly beautiful chant, the iconography and folk songs, the universal catholicity and beautiful diversity, the approach to scriptural exegesis and scientific endeavor, and on and on and on and on --- She, alone, has these Words, to whom can we go?

The trick is to drop the false dichotomies that suggest the Incarnation is too scandalous to believe, to recognize that His Eucharistic Presence in this or that imperfect person is an invitation for our own embrace and to let every imperfection become a signpost to He, Who, alone, is perfect. That's Why You Can Disagree and Remain a Faithful Catholic.

I hope we can thus move beyond this consideration of our Editors' psychological states and take them off the defensive for their anonymity. Meanwhile, back to why we disagree on the Church's teaching regarding ABC. Please.

Dutifully,
momZ

[This message was edited by Momz on November 29, 2002 at 12:12 PM.]

[This message was edited by Momz on November 29, 2002 at 12:15 PM.]
Charles
November 29, 2002, 12:11 PM
Wonderful post, momZ.

You wouln't happen to be Alicia from one of the old forums a few months ago, would you? You seem to have the same kind of spunk and depth that she did.
Susan
Member
November 30, 2002, 06:09 PM
Momz wrote:
The problem, under consideration presently in other threads, is well set forth in http://arcc-catholic-rights.org/rights6.htm. Some very edifying responses to the problem are set forth in http://astro.temple.edu/~arcc/erna.htm and in http://www.agreeley.com/articles/why.html, who uses the more genteel term, _corrupt thugs_, rather than something as scathing as fascists. wink


Momz,

Thank you for the thoughtful post and the references to other articles.

Did you read the article by Dr. Biechler?
I was totally delighted with it.....

"Pope John Paul II has spoken glowing words about "inculturation," the need to respect the cultures of others when preaching the gospel to them. American culture seems to be an exception for those Romans of fascist predilection. "Americanism" became a label of heterodoxy for some officials in the Roman curia a century ago. Granted, the current Vatican crack-down on Catholic institutions of higher education is not focused solely on institutions in the United States. But it is in the United States where principles and practices of academic freedom find their clearest expression. American bishops should defend these principles as part of their own American cultural identity and should stand up to those who speak glowingly of academic freedom, the free pursuit of truth, and inculturation, only to take them back with the iron fist of fascism. "
(Bold letters are mine.)

I had no idea there was someone else out there who actually saw the fascism in all this. I am grateful to know this. I don't think Greeley's genteel term, 'corrupt thugs,' is as accurate.

I appreciate all your comments but I don't think we are talking about the same thing. 'Perfect love casts away fear' would better describe my
point of view.

I sincerely try to work myself into a state of compassion for the Magisterium. I think that perhaps many of them have some of the diseases so common in the elderly....after all, even one of our Presidents was in the beginning stages of AD while he sat in the White House. Or, perhaps, the Magisterium is just so terribly wounded by living through those very difficult years of war that they don't even realize that they are perpetuating a fascist style of administration and don't really care about it. (This all makes me wonder why there isn't a mandatory age of retirement for the Pope. Checks and balances are so needed in the Church!)



Momz wrote:
This is not to say that some people who may have been so wounded by a relationship (parental, spousal, ecclesial) should not get out and get and remain far away in order to heal. This is just to shed some light on why some people remain in the Church and thrive there despite its imPerFEcshUNZ. The gifts of Eucharist, Reconciliation, the spiritualities of the Jesuits, Carmelites, Benedictines, Dominicans, Franciscans et al, the Thomistic metaphysics, the soaring liturgies and hauntingly beautiful chant, the iconography and folk songs, the universal catholicity and beautiful diversity, the approach to scriptural exegesis and scientific endeavor, and on and on and on and on --- She, alone, has these Words, to whom can we go?


Susan replied:
To whom can we go? God, not the Church alone.
God is with us each and every moment and speaks through everything in the world around us. Although we use the word 'secular', there really is no such thing. God is so present, if we are just aware....if we just take the time to be silent....to pray....to allow the Holy Spirit to have its way with us.



Momz wrote:
The trick is to drop the false dichotomies that suggest the Incarnation is too scandalous to believe, to recognize that His Eucharistic Presence in this or that imperfect person is an invitation for our own embrace and to let every imperfection become a signpost to He, Who, alone, is perfect. That's http://www.saintjohnsabbey.org/kaufman/.


Susan replied:
Rather than perfect, I would use the word, 'whole.' Wholeness, not perfection, is the goal, as I understand it.


Peace,

Susan
Momz
Member
November 30, 2002, 06:48 PM
We invoke because we have been convoked.
We invoke because we have been convoked, are called as individuals AND as a People. God and/or Church are/is not a dichotomy. We are radically social beings.

I personally disdain such descriptions as fascists and thugs but am in deep sympathy with the wounded healers who find them an apt description. I am glad you experienced some solidarity with the ARCC. Check out these other organizations at http://arcc-catholic-rights.org/links.htm.

Go in peace,
momZ
Susan
Member
December 01, 2002, 04:14 PM
Originally posted by Momz:
We invoke because we have been convoked, are called as individuals AND as a People. God and/or Church are/is not a dichotomy.....

Susan:
No, God and/or Church are/is not a dichotomy. Good point. However, Church does not supplant God and God extends beyond and encompasses People.

As far as the birth control issue goes, I think some confuse Church (meaning Magisterium) and God.

Michael Crosby, author of "The Dysfunctional Church: Addiction and Codependency in the Family of Catholicism" makes a very good distinction between the two styles of Church. I don't have my notes with me but I've heard him compare two portions of Matthew's Gospel.....The quote we are taught to be most familiar with is the "keys to the kingdom" quote. However, there is another quote, equally compelling and much different in meaning, that is often overlooked. If anyone is interested, I'll search for my notes and give you a more in depth explanation.

Momz:
I personally disdain such descriptions as fascists and thugs but am in deep sympathy with the wounded healers who find them an apt description. I am glad you experienced some solidarity with the ARCC. Check out these other organizations at http://arcc-catholic-rights.org/links.htm.


Susan:
Thank you for the interesting references. Valued greatly. I don't find myself in solidarity with the ARCC but I like the article you suggested to me.


Go in peace,

Go? smile

In peace,

Susan
awfltdoc
Member
December 15, 2002, 06:01 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Susan:
Momz wrote:
The problem, under consideration presently in other threads, is well set forth in http://arcc-catholic-rights.org/rights6.htm. Some very edifying responses to the problem are set forth in http://astro.temple.edu/~arcc/erna.htm and in http://www.agreeley.com/articles/why.html, who uses the more genteel term, _corrupt thugs_, rather than something as scathing as fascists. wink


Momz,

Thank you for the thoughtful post and the references to other articles.

Did you read the article by Dr. Biechler?
I was totally delighted with it.....

"Pope John Paul II has spoken glowing words about "inculturation," the need to respect the cultures of others when preaching the gospel to them. American culture seems to be an exception for those Romans of _fascist_ predilection. "Americanism" became a label of heterodoxy for some officials in the Roman curia a century ago. Granted, the current Vatican crack-down on Catholic institutions of higher education is not focused solely on institutions in the United States. But it is in the United States where principles and practices of academic freedom find their clearest expression. American bishops should defend these principles as part of their own American cultural identity and should stand up to those who speak glowingly of academic freedom, the free pursuit of truth, and inculturation, only to take them back with the iron fist of _fascism_. "
(Bold letters are mine.)

I had no idea there was someone else out there who actually saw the fascism in all this. I am grateful to know this. I don't think Greeley's genteel term, 'corrupt thugs,' is as accurate.

I appreciate all your comments but I don't think we are talking about the same thing. 'Perfect love casts away fear' would better describe my
point of view.

I sincerely try to work myself into a state of compassion for the Magisterium. I think that perhaps many of them have some of the diseases so common in the elderly....after all, even one of our Presidents was in the beginning stages of AD while he sat in the White House. Or, perhaps, the Magisterium is just so terribly wounded by living through those very difficult years of war that they don't even realize that they are perpetuating a fascist style of administration and don't really care about it. (This all makes me wonder why there isn't a mandatory age of retirement for the Pope. Checks and balances are so needed in the Church!)



Momz wrote:
This is not to say that some people who may have been so wounded by a relationship (parental, spousal, ecclesial) should not get out and get and remain far away in order to heal. This is just to shed some light on why some people remain in the Church and thrive there despite its imPerFEcshUNZ. The gifts of Eucharist, Reconciliation, the spiritualities of the Jesuits, Carmelites, Benedictines, Dominicans, Franciscans et al, the Thomistic metaphysics, the soaring liturgies and hauntingly beautiful chant, the iconography and folk songs, the universal catholicity and beautiful diversity, the approach to scriptural exegesis and scientific endeavor, and on and on and on and on --- She, alone, has these Words, to whom can we go?


Susan replied:
To whom can we go? God, not the Church alone.
God is with us each and every moment and speaks through everything in the world around us. Although we use the word 'secular', there really is no such thing. God is so present, if we are just aware....if we just take the time to be silent....to pray....to allow the Holy Spirit to have its way with us.



Momz wrote:
The trick is to drop the false dichotomies that suggest the Incarnation is too scandalous to believe, to recognize that His Eucharistic Presence in this or that imperfect person is an invitation for our own embrace and to let every imperfection become a signpost to He, Who, alone, is perfect. That's http://www.saintjohnsabbey.org/kaufman/.


Susan replied:
Rather than perfect, I would use the word, 'whole.' Wholeness, not perfection, is the goal, as I understand it.


Peace,

Susan


I agree that the Pope has invisioned a greater Church with his writings on culture, However, I disagree with some of you ideas. Culture can be benificial or detremental. The American Culture is detremental, more so that benificial. The Holy Father no dobdt did't intend for the culture of death to be included in his vision of this greater Church.

Anthony Waldroup, MD
NF
December 20, 2002, 02:39 PM
I agree that the Pope has invisioned a greater Church with his writings on culture, However, I disagree with some of you ideas. Culture can be benificial or detremental. The American Culture is detremental, more so that benificial. The Holy Father no dobdt did't intend for the culture of death to be included in his vision of this greater Church.

Doc, you make an excellent counterpoint here, better nuancing inculturation. Since you are a medical professional, presumably with some psychological insight, what do you make of Susan's sophisticated psychological theories about the hierarchy being fascists, adolescents, power-hungry, and such?

Who is the real troll?

NFH