Mo4
writes:
It saddens me to think that part of the fallout of our
Church's teaching crisis might be to weaken people's faith. This seemed to be
one of the primary concerns of Paul VI and the minority theologians:
"If the Church could err (on this issue), the authority of the ordinary
magisterium in moral matters would be thrown into question. The faithful could
not put their trust in the magisterium's presentation of moral teaching,
especially in sexual matters. For if this doctrine is not substantially true,
the magisterium itself will seem to be empty and useless in any moral
matter."
Richard McBrien: "The assumption here seems to be that if the Church, or
any comparable moral agency, can be found to be in error on this important
matter, its judgment on ALL matters is automatically suspect."
Has this crisis in moral teaching ever been a source of doubt for you as
regarding the central Mysteries of the faith even? It need not!
Megan Hartman: "Humanae Vitae becomes the point at which many Catholics begin
to decide to go their own way on issues of reproductive morality and yet remain
Catholic in their minds and hearts. Andrew Greeley writes that one of the most
important results of the encyclical turned out to be that “the laity and the
junior clergy did not listen and the Vatican’s credibility as a teacher of
sexual ethics was badly weakened.”
The majority theologians wrote: "Such a change is to be seen rather as a
step toward a more mature comprehension of the whole doctrine of the Church.
For doubt and reconsideration are quite reasonable when proper reasons for
doubt and reconsideration occur with regard to some specific question. This is
part and parcel of the accepted teaching of fundamental theology."
There perhaps exist newer and seemingly more compelling reasons for scandal in
the Church today. If there are lessons we learned from the fallout of Humanae
Vitae, then let no one take an all or nothing approach in their assessment of
our pilgrim Church's reliability, trustworthiness, credibility and
authoritativeness, given our sundry all too human failings. That She has
survived and thrived down through the ages, despite all of our individual
sinfulness, foibles and mistakes, however comprised of so very imperfect human
beings, is perhaps the SUREST sign of the Holy Spirit's abiding influence!
shalom,
Mo4
Rose
responds:
I so agree
with you. I can still be a faithful Catholic in my heart and disagree with this
one teaching. I was so very surprised when I finally did some research on this
subject and found that the majority of Catholic clergy and laity disagree with
the teaching on Birth Control. It is hard for me to believe that God would
throw me out of Heaven if I did my best as a Catholic, but decided to use a
non-abortive form of BC with my husband for very good reasons.
Thank you so much for your post.
Someone
retorts: Sorry to inform you Rose, the Church is not a
democracy, it doesn't matter if all laity disagree with the Church's teaching.
(I don't buy any poll that suggests the Clergy disagree with this teaching, you
will have to supply more detailed information on that one. But, it doesn't
matter if a majority of them disent anyway.) You might also want to venture
over to some orthodox Catholic websites istead of sites like this one that are
disent based. Just a thought.
May God Bless You Rose
Mo4 responds:
It is no secret
that the majority of the Catholic clergy in this country side with lay
Catholics in disagreeing with the birth-control ban—a 1980 Princeton poll found
only 30 percent of the priests agreeing with Humanae vitae. A 1994 Los Angeles
Time poll revealed that they continue to side with lay catholics, not just the
priests, but also women religious, who were polled separately.
One may or may not care what a majority of clergy and religious think, siding
with hierarchical pronouncements. That's understandable. And ture enough, a
majority consensus dosn't make anything right or true, to be sure. It does make
dissenting positions worthy of serious engagement and sober reflection though.
How else could we have ever gotten the hierarchy to abandon its support of
slavery or its outmoded position on usury?
Obviously, Rose,
you understand that much longsuffering and forbearance is required regarding
those who would condemn you and even more patience will be required before
anyone in this forum can demonstrate the validity of the Church's teaching on
birth control using human reason.
God Bless You, Rose
Mo4
Nowadays, however, the spouse of Christ prefers to make use of the medicine of
mercy rather than that of severity. She considers that she meets the needs of
the present day by demonstrating the validity of her teaching rather than by
condemnations.
Pope John XXIII, from his Opening Address of Vatican II
In a
subthread, Rose also wrote:
If two people
are married and use a form of non-abortive BC because they feel it is the
responsible thing to do so for the sake of their families, God is not going to
condemn that married couple to hell.
Saying that the use of BC under the above circumstance is a "mortal
sin" is ignorant, arrogant and ridiculous!!
God gave me a brain with which to reason. I will thank Him by using it.
Luther?
responded:
I couldn't
agree more Pope Rose, what are we calling our new church?
Luther
John Wayne
responded: a *pilgrim* church, part of it often in error, seldom
in doubt, another part sinful and sorrowful but always repentant
Mo4 responds to
Luther:
And when,
precisely, did the Holy Roman Catholic Church acquire the whole truth?
When the Roman Magisterium actively supported the evil institution of slavery
in
1) the Council of Gangra in 362, which was affirmed by
2) Pope Martin I in 650, further decreed by
3) the Ninth Council of Toledo in 655 and furthered by
4) Pope Urban II in 1089 and during the Crusades by
5) Pope Alexander III at the Third Lateran Council and
6) Pope Innocent III at the Fourth Lateran Council and
7) Pope Nicholas V in 1454
Rather firmly established by that time I'd say, you know the chant: constant
tradition?
Maybe we began to get the truth when, in 1839, Gregory XVI condemned slave
trading, which the bishops in the South interpreted as not a condemnation of
domestic slavery.
Even after the United States was starting to get THE truth about slavery, post
Civil War, as late as 1866 the Holy Office issued an instruction reaffirming
the moral justification of slavery.
Perhaps it was in 1891 that the Church made clear that slavery was incompatible
with fundamental human rights as Leo XIII took such a position?
The magisterium was CLEARLY and UNAMBIGUOUSLY WRONG on such a grave moral evil
as slavery for CENTURIES.
Why does this not raise at least a doubt, in some minds, that it could be wrong
again?
Notwithstanding all of the above, there is still one major question begging:
why didn't Paul VI make an infallible pronouncement, that is speak ex cathedra?
Faith and Reason are partners. Read Fides et Ratio, a brilliant document in so
many regards. Rose, hang on to your reason and cling to your faith. Others of
you, cling to your faith and take comfort in your invincible ignorance.