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Date: 10/15/02 01:51:53 PM

Name: Mo4


Subject: Re: Re: Luther .......

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And when, precisely, did the Holy Roman Catholic Church acquire the whole truth?

When the Roman Magisterium actively supported the evil institution of slavery in

1) the Council of Gangra in 362, which was affirmed by
2) Pope Martin I in 650, further decreed by
3) the Ninth Council of Toledo in 655 and furthered by
4) Pope Urban II in 1089 and during the Crusades by
5) Pope Alexander III at the Third Lateran Council and
6) Pope Innocent III at the Fourth Lateran Council and
7) Pope Nicholas V in 1454

Rather firmly established by that time I'd say, you know the chant: constant tradition?

Maybe we began to get the truth when, in 1839, Gregory XVI condemned slave trading, which the bishops in the South interpreted as not a condemnation of domestic slavery.

Even after the United States was starting to get THE truth about slavery, post Civil War, as late as 1866 the Holy Office issued an instruction reaffirming the moral justification of slavery.

Perhaps it was in 1891 that the Church made clear that slavery was incompatible with fundamental human rights as Leo XIII took such a position?

The magisterium was CLEARLY and UNAMBIGUOUSLY WRONG on such a grave moral evil as slavery for CENTURIES.

Why does this not raise at least a doubt, in some minds, that it could be wrong again?

Notwithstanding all of the above, there is still one major question begging: why didn't Paul VI make an infallible pronouncement, that is speak ex cathedra?

Faith and Reason are partners. Read Fides et Ratio, a brilliant document in so many regards. Rose, hang on to your reason and cling to your faith. Others of you, cling to your faith and take comfort in your invincible ignorance.

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Yes, in your context that would be a lowercase 'c.' When speaking of the Holy Roman Catholic Church, it is capitalized.
There are many churches (lowercase intended) with only partial truth, those would be protestant churches, their members are their own pope as stated above.

You and editor must get over this name calling, what kind of example is that for your children? Maybe ABC in your case is a blessing. Oops, sorry fell into uncharitablness myself.

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Catholic means "universal", so I don't think a change need take place. But thanks anyway, Loser Luther!

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I couldn't agree more Pope Rose, what are we calling our new church?


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If two people are married and use a form of non-abortive BC because they feel it is the responsible thing to do so for the sake of their families, God is not going to condemn that married couple to hell.

Saying that the use of BC under the above circumstance is a "mortal sin" is ignorant, arrogant and ridiculous!!

God gave me a brain with which to reason. I will thank Him by using it.

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Obviously, Rose, you understand that much longsuffering and forbearance is required regarding those who would condemn you and even more patience will be required before anyone in this forum can demonstrate the validity of the Church's teaching on birth control using human reason.

God Bless You, Rose

Nowadays, however, the spouse of Christ prefers to make use of the medicine of mercy rather than that of severity. She considers that she meets the needs of the present day by demonstrating the validity of her teaching rather than by condemnations.

Pope John XXIII, from his Opening Address of Vatican II

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Sorry to inform you Rose, the Church is not a democracy, it doesn't matter if all laity disagree with the Church's teaching. (I don't buy any poll that suggests the Clergy disagree with this teaching, you will have to supply more detailed information on that one. But, it doesn't matter if a majority of them disent anyway.) You might also want to venture over to some orthodox Catholic websites istead of sites like this one that are disent based. Just a thought.
May God Bless You Rose

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I so agree with you. I can still be a faithful Catholic in my heart and disagree with this one teaching. I was so very surprised when I finally did some research on this subject and found that the majority of Catholic clergy and laity disagree with the teaching on Birth Control. It is hard for me to believe that God would throw me out of Heaven if I did my best as a Catholic, but decided to use a non-abortive form of BC with my husband for very good reasons.

Thank you so much for your post.

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